Changing electronic injection pump to mechanic pump

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kingsonlim
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Changing electronic injection pump to mechanic pump

Postby kingsonlim » Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:22 pm

Thanks to Matthew for the information before I started this work!!

Throttle position sensor / potentiometer on my disco is playing up, causing tickover revs to 2000 or even higher most of the time. Replacement cost about 70 quid delivered, so finally getting my hands to ditch the electronic injection pump and going for the mechanical pump.

Procedures on what I did:
- removed viscous fan and shrowd
- removed fan belt and pulley for fan
- removed damper pulley & timing belt cover
- set TDC, then removed timing belt
- remove pulley on injection pump
- removed all fuel lines on injection pump
- unplug all electrical connection to injection pump
- remove injection pump
- removed air flow meter and replaced with straight through air intake hose
- attach mechanical injection pump
- attach all fuel lines
- attach turbo pressure pipe to injection pump
- attach throttle cable to injection pump
- attach pulley to injection pump
- attach timing belt
- attach timing belt cover, pulleys and fan belt
- bleed fuel lines through lift pump
- tried starting, but couldn't

To do list:
- to take timing cover off again and check timing belt being put back correctly

If car can be started after adjusting timing (timing belt):
- adjust throttle cable
- adjust idle screw
- adjust max speed screw
- attach fan shrowd & viscous fan
- tape up all exposed electrical sockets to prevent mud contamination

Questions:

- I used a marker pen to mark on the pulleys and timing belt....but by the time I was putting it back on, I couldn't see the marking on the belt already........what may I do to make sure the timing is right?

- I noticed the check engine light remained on....how do I get rid of it?

- Apart from possible timing issue with the timing belt & possible air-lock still within the injection pump / injection fuel lines.....any other possible issues causing the car not be started?

- any other things I should do?

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Bo
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Postby Bo » Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:26 pm

Hi Kingson, A few obvious points, but worth a mention.
Did you lock the flywheel and pump before you started? I have a wading plug which I have drilled to take a 3/16 drill, you can use a reversing light switch from a R380 gear box which fits perfectly, but don't put ant strain on it or it will shear off. You lock the back of the pump with a drill bit, 9mm I think. Other than that it is just a case of setting the belt pulley marks as per the manual.
Have you put a live feed to the solenoid on the back of the pump as it also needs this to run.
5/4 of people admit that they’re bad with fractions.

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Bo
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Postby Bo » Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:27 pm

Just found this which might help.
http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=39385
5/4 of people admit that they’re bad with fractions.

kingsonlim
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Postby kingsonlim » Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:47 pm

Thank Bo...

Flywheel not locked. It's an auto. Tried locking the flywheel last time when I need to replace the crank pulley......end up having to take starter motor out and shafted a big screw driver through...long story....!!

Will re-set the timing belt as per manual tomorrow...if I find time.

I had extended the 12v supply from the existing loom...so that's covered.

Might need to loosen the injection pipe to bleed system again.

I guess the only way to get rid of the check engine light is to disconnect the EDC/ECU permanently.

nicks90
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Postby nicks90 » Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:52 am

kingson, isnt the 12v feed from the existing loom part and parcel of the ECU loom for the electronic pump?
If so, are you absolutely sure its getting 12v with the ignition on? I just have a feeling it may be getting itself confused as it is missing some vital components and not switching the solenoid on your mechanical pump when you try to start.
Maybe worth chucking a temporary wire between the battery and solenoid for the purposes of the test.
Bugger!
Another bloody dent...

dave willard
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Postby dave willard » Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:10 am

kingsonlim wrote:Thank Bo...

Flywheel not locked. It's an auto. Tried locking the flywheel last time when I need to replace the crank pulley......end up having to take starter motor out and shafted a big screw driver through...long story....!!

Will re-set the timing belt as per manual tomorrow...if I find time.

I had extended the 12v supply from the existing loom...so that's covered.

Might need to loosen the injection pipe to bleed system again.

I guess the only way to get rid of the check engine light is to disconnect the EDC/ECU permanently.


Hi
Did you change the injectors for the correct type none engine management 300 TDI use different injectors good part is genuin Bosch ones are £30 I think your will be ok but bear in mind

If the timing is out by more than 10deg engine will not start also do the cam pulley markings line up at TDC

The only real way to set up the timing is with a dial test gauge fitted into the rear of the injection pump setting the lift as per the manual at at TDC (not unlike setting ignition timing) need to take time on this setting on coming up to TDC
By using the preset locking positions you are assuming the the pulley flange is in the correct position on the pump shaft this is a taper with no key so can be set in any position but probabley a bit out I have always carried this out when changing cam belt as the setting is very sensitive to
power
Everyone assumes the flange is in correct position but if the pump is repaired/overhauled the flange will need to be removed so you have to start from scratch Assume somone did it with care
I had to do the years ago when my pump was overhauled

I am assuming that timing not a long way out so you are setting up with cylinder no 1 about to " fire"

Set the pulley in the centre of the slot on the flange
set rough timing re lift
tighten the shaft nut (i put locktight on the taper)
set timing up

The dial test needs a long extension to be in contact with the lift cam, I made a steel rod that fits into the hole in the punp with a just tight enought fit to use dial test
Note EGR or no egr ETC different lift settings so this needs to be carried out if you blank it off
I set mine at midway between the two giving an advanced slightly position
The power of my 300tdi auto was similar to drive by wire when set up by try & test several times
There is no need to play with the fuel settings
Cantact me if you want any help

I have made a locking tool that replces the starter motor engaging on several teeth its the only way to lock it when tightening crank nut on an auto
to remove the bolt use extansion bar wedged on os chassis rail then use starter
DAVE

kingsonlim
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Postby kingsonlim » Tue Oct 19, 2010 2:09 pm

Updates:

- re-attach the timing belt correctly this time.......woodruff key slot on crank shaft pointing straight up aligning with the notch on block.......the 'marking' on cam sprocket is pointing roughly at 7 o'clock aligning with the 'arrow'.......injection pump at TDC where a 9mm drill bits can be slotted all the way in

- got the disco started, but it now revs at 2000 and climbing. And a lot of white smokes smelling diesel.....so, I think it's over fueling......the exhaust note sounded weird too....like "bup bup bup bup" in a very fast note...

- wound back the idling screw to max........no change to the over fueling...

What should I do next? Or what could I do next? :(

Would someone in the know be so kind to come mend it for me? Anyday is fine. Beer, tea and food catered for :)

TwoSheds
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Postby TwoSheds » Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:06 pm

Now if it was petrol...
;)

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Jabba
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Postby Jabba » Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:54 pm

... I still wouldn't have a clue :shock:

That's why I got a 200tdi - no fancy electronics.

kingsonlim
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Postby kingsonlim » Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:05 pm

hence the 'downgrade' from electronic injection pump to mechanical injection pump.....to get rid of the electronics.....!!!

Just read on Rave that the injection timing on non EDC is 1.54mm lift at TDC, while the injection timing is 0.45mm lift at TDC......wonder if this has any effect on the over fueling issue I am having....

Noticed also the injector is slightly different too........EDC : initial pressure 200 atmospheres, secondary 300 atmospheres.....non EDC : initial pressure 200 atmospheres, secondary 280 atmospheres........hope this has no ill effect after the swap.

dave willard
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Postby dave willard » Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:00 pm

kingsonlim wrote:hence the 'downgrade' from electronic injection pump to mechanical injection pump.....to get rid of the electronics.....!!!

Just read on Rave that the injection timing on non EDC is 1.54mm lift at TDC, while the injection timing is 0.45mm lift at TDC......wonder if this has any effect on the over fueling issue I am having....

Noticed also the injector is slightly different too........EDC : initial pressure 200 atmospheres, secondary 300 atmospheres.....non EDC : initial pressure 200 atmospheres, secondary 280 atmospheres........hope this has no ill effect after the swap.


YOU HAVE REMOVED THE EDC PUMP for a mech one which requires different setting for same crank head etc forget the 1.54(its different due to the EGR its the same on some mech pumps with EGR) anyway the difference is about 5 deg
Mmore important is the timing on you engine
I assume you have put a pipe from the turbo out to the pump diaphram

Your problem sounds like timing out

Suggest remove plate in front of the pump srocket, you will see that you can adjust the position of the inner to outer sprocket MARK the position (scratch the metal dont felt tip which rubs off) then move either side of your current position 2 or 4 mm either way see if it makes a difference you can all ways return the original setting
NOTE HOLD THE SHAFT WITH A SPANNER ON THE CENTRE NUT AS WHEN YOU LOOSEN THE 3x 6mm bolts it may move its self as it could be under tension
I would also double check the timing belt fitting as its very easy to fit it a tooth out I use a mirror with a straight edge unless the rad has been removed then you can see directly in front of the engine

To lock/find TDC remove the plate in the bellhousing front, the larger bolt hole is used (If i remember correctly) to line up with a hole in the TQ by sliding a smaller bolt thro the hole into a blind hole into the TQ

Have fun I would offer to help but not available until 5th November
DAVE

NOTE ALL THIS APPLIES TO THE 200 TDI AS WELL

kingsonlim
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Postby kingsonlim » Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:57 pm

update:

- timing cover came off again......double confirmed that timing belt is on correctly (with the use of a mirror), crank key aligned to notch, cam sprocket mark aligned to arrow, 9mm drill bits slide in & out pump sprocket alright.

- done 5 testings with pump inner sprocket moved from 'left' most to 'right' most.............on right most - assuming it's advance timing......rev goes very high......on left most - assuming it's retard timing....rev drops down a bit..........on all 5 position the rev is 2000 and above, and has backfire type of sound, plus lots of smoke

I am assuming there is too much fuel supplied (advanced too much), so have also move the injection sprocket 1 tooth back on belt....can't start the car....

Errrrrr.........what next?????

dave willard
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Postby dave willard » Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:29 pm

[quote="kingsonlim"]update:

- timing cover came off again......double confirmed that timing belt is on correctly (with the use of a mirror), crank key aligned to notch, cam sprocket mark aligned to arrow, 9mm drill bits slide in & out pump sprocket alright.

- done 5 testings with pump inner sprocket moved from 'left' most to 'right' most.............on right most - assuming it's advance timing......rev goes very high......on left most - assuming it's retard timing....rev drops down a bit..........on all 5 position the rev is 2000 and above, and has backfire type of sound, plus lots of smoke

I am assuming there is too much fuel supplied (advanced too much), so have also move the injection sprocket 1 tooth back on belt....can't start the car....

Hi
What is the history on the pump how certain can you be that its ok

Have the seals been tampered with as it may have been fiddled with
I am not happy about the high revs which could indicate faulty pump

Dave

kingsonlim
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Postby kingsonlim » Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:52 pm

the pump came off a 200tdi that I know runs well till end of last year....the seal appears to be intact....and the pump has not been tweeked as far as I know....

kingsonlim
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Postby kingsonlim » Sun Oct 24, 2010 10:38 am

Disco is running perfect now.....thanks to Matthew for supplying a 300tdi injection pump and tuning it.....found out that 200tdi injection pump can not be used on 300tdi lump..

Will do a full write up after I sorted the following:

- ecu removal
- new bracket for kick down cable
- and a few other electrical gremlins


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