Winches

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Jabba
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Winches

Postby Jabba » Mon May 27, 2013 12:04 pm

I've started thinking about fitting a winch.

I'd like to keep the cost down as low as possible while still getting something that will actually be useful. I'm happy to sort the wiring and so on myself and to weld in a winch tray to my existing HD bumper. So the main cost will be the winch itself.

I'm not looking for a super, challenge spec thing, just something that will get me out of the smelly stuff if or when I get stuck. Synthetic rope would be nice instead of wire rope, but I could always change to that later.

Are secondhand winches worth considering? If so which ones and any to steer clear of. I definitely want one with a freespool.
Any one got a winch they'd like to sell?

As for new winches - how to the WARRIOR C9500EWX? The goldfish ones seem to work out a bit more expensive than I'd like. Are they really worth it?

Any help appreciated.

Cheers, Dave

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Matthews
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Postby Matthews » Mon May 27, 2013 1:12 pm

You get what you pay for , buy a cheap winch and the chances are when you need it most it won't do the job , need I say more !!!

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varleym
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Postby varleym » Mon May 27, 2013 1:29 pm

If I was after a good general purpose winch that I could rely on I'd probably go for a Goldfish. Can get options for remote operation (wired or wireless) and/or fit a control switch in the cab.

Freespool is OK (my rear winch is a Goldfish) and they do a kit to operate it from inside the cab via an air switch if you want to.

Cheers

Mark

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pamw
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Postby pamw » Mon May 27, 2013 1:42 pm

I have the low line 9.5 TDS Goldfish on the front of mine, for self-recovery (should it be required!) for our Oz trip. With air freespool fitted and switch in cab.

If you want to take a look, pop around sometime.

We bought it second hand from someone on Devon4x4 Forum - they come up quite often on there - probably saved about £100 on new price anyway.
Archaeology - my career in ruins !

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Jabba
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Postby Jabba » Mon May 27, 2013 3:51 pm

Thanks for the replies. Guess it's what I expected. Do you need to change the front springs to cope with the extra weight of the winch?

bandiflip
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Postby bandiflip » Mon May 27, 2013 7:54 pm

Matthews right,I bought a Warn 8274 for £350 which is very cheap.....turns out motor was buggered.....try get a new winch instead of second hand,chances are they're selling it for a reason........ I've got a winch tray you can have .
do you know the meaning of Nemesis ???

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Jabba
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Postby Jabba » Mon May 27, 2013 8:19 pm

Cheers Phil. How much?

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pamw
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Postby pamw » Mon May 27, 2013 8:34 pm

bandiflip wrote:Matthews right,I bought a Warn 8274 for £350 which is very cheap.....turns out motor was buggered.....try get a new winch instead of second hand


Well, that's not quite what Matthew said.... Between Dave and Matthew I don't think they have ever bought a NEW winch - all been bought used and rebuilt as required! :wink: :lol:

In the challenge scene lots of people are re-building/replacing/breaking motors all the time so there is a steady supply of used winches around, if you prepared to wait and pounce when one comes up (keep an eye on the Forums Sales boards - D44. LR44, etc, - rather than Ebay)
Archaeology - my career in ruins !

bandiflip
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Postby bandiflip » Mon May 27, 2013 10:03 pm

I didn't say it's what he meant I just said he was right...... I mean.... Ya pay ya money ya takes ya chance with second hand.
I don't want anything for it Dave
do you know the meaning of Nemesis ???

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Jabba
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Postby Jabba » Tue May 28, 2013 7:21 am

Thanks Phil. I see you're not going to club night, are you going to Fellbeck? I might be there briefly as we are going away and could take it off your hands then.

bandiflip
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Postby bandiflip » Tue May 28, 2013 2:35 pm

I might be going....... Am in Warwick til Thursday night with work but will keep ya posted
do you know the meaning of Nemesis ???

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Bo
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Postby Bo » Tue May 28, 2013 6:21 pm

Don't be too afraid of winches with knackered motors as long as the drums not seized and it is cheap enough. I bought my warn with a seized motor and swapped the standard one for the Bowmotor giving a usable increase in pulling power and the ability to 24v for rapid spooling.
http://www.dborc.co.uk/goodwinch/
If you go with a Warn, all parts are available, they are a piece of wee to rebuild and manuals are available online
http://www.warn.com/truck/winches/src/XD9000.shtml
Rod bought a Goodwinch before his Warn so might be worth speaking to him.
When you wire it use good quality welding cable and an Albright relay for maximum reliability. There is a link on here somewhere on a home made crimp for the ends.
5/4 of people admit that they’re bad with fractions.

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Jabba
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Postby Jabba » Thu May 30, 2013 3:43 pm

If I upgrade the alternator from the 45amp one on there at present to a 100amp one, do I need to upgrade the alternator to battery wiring too, or should it handle the extra current? If I need to upgrade, what sort of size cable am I looking at?
Is there any benefit in using welding cable over battery cable?

Cheers.

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davew
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Postby davew » Thu May 30, 2013 4:51 pm

You're best upgrading the alternator wiring although in truth you'll probably get away with the standard cable as the chances of the alternator putting out 100A for any sustained period is pretty slim !

The resistance of the cables is the most important factor with winches (or any high current 12v system) and for that reason I'd never use welding cable as normally it has a much higher resistance per meter than battery cable. If you want to know why, there follows a "short" explanation of how winch motors work :)

When you activate a winch motor you are, to all intents and purposes, putting a direct short circuit across the battery, through the motor. The only resistance, and therefore the biggest limiting factor in it's performance, is the resistance of the cables and joints. The only reason the motor doesn't melt as a result is that as the motor spins it generates/induces eddy currents in it's own windings that limit the current flow, the faster the motor turns the stronger these become and the less current can pass through.

It's this effect that limits the speed of the motor as the combination of the eddy currents induced into it's own windings and the resistance of the cables determine the speed the motor can run at. As load increases and the speed of the motor decreases the eddy currents reduce allowing higher currents through the windings and increasing the power.

As you can probably surmise from this, the most damaging thing you can do to a motor is stall it and keep it activated when it's not running because in that condition the only limit on the current is the resistance of the wire. So if you ever hear the winch motor stall, stop winching or you'll burn the motor out !

Welding wire is used with a higher voltage normally where the voltage is increased to control the current that flows. As a result welding wire has to be capable of taking the current but it's resistance really doesn't matter in that application so it's resistance is often quite high when compared to battery cable, often sacrificing low resistance for flexibility.

At full chat a winch motor on a standard low line winch will be pulling close to 200 amps and at the most you're probably going to get between 11-12 volts to push that through. You can forget 13.8 volts because the moment you try and pull more than 100 amps the voltage will fall away. At 12 volts the absolute maximum resistance of all the cables and the motor windings and the battery and the connectors is 0.06 ohms. Adding even 0.01 ohms to that in your cable will reduce the maximum current (and power) of your winch from 200A to 170A and the figures get worse as the voltage drops below 12v.

In summary - get the lowest resistance cable you can find of a suitable current rating and use that ! In battery cable normally the higher the current rating the bigger the cross section and the lower the resistance.

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Phil&Lucy
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Postby Phil&Lucy » Thu May 30, 2013 7:19 pm

Dave,

I think you have possibly got your "Eddy Currents" mixed up with your "Back EMF".

Had a quick check with Mr Faraday and its back EMF that increases as motor speed increases. The more back EMF the less current this is why an electric motor pulls a high current from stationary and the current reduces as the motor speeds up. As load is applied to the motor the back EMF reduces and the current goes increases.

Its surprising what useless facts can be stored in an old Electricians brain!

Phil
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