Reversing rims

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nicks90
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Reversing rims

Postby nicks90 » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:59 am

So as to not clog up the wheel spacer thread with slightly off topic stuff - a new thread seems in order.

i am seriously thinking about having a go at turning the disco rims i have on my 90.
The usual method is to grind out the welds, hammer the centre out with a 20 million pound lump hammer or hydraulic press and turn the centre plate and put it back in the rim. Put it roughly in the right position and bolt it to the hub and use a dial gauge and hammer to ensure the rim runs true on the centre, then tack it together - remove and fully weld it up.

seems lots of work and requires a dial guage (dont have) and good welding skills (i'm not a bad welder, but trust in ones own stick welding on something as critical as a wheel is a bit far for me to stretch to) and lots of time.
Yes yes yes - i could just go and buy a set of nice offset rims - but the credit crunch and redundancy is hitting the clayton familly hard and that isnt an option. Plus making stuff is fun.


As an alternative, whats wrong with just reversing the whole wheel? I understand that the back of the wheel needs to be flat against the hub face - but couldnt this be achieved by just grinding down the raised wheel nut guides on the front? You could then put a bead of weld around each stud hole on the back of the rim to act as new guides to centre the wheel on the studs. Weld up the hole for the valve and drill a new hole that wont get ripped off by the calliper.
This appears on the face of it to be much easier and quicker than the first method and negates any problems with weld strength and rim/centre plate alignment with its associated wheel wobble.

Is this a) possible b) legal c) acceptable to the club - or am i talking guff and should sell a kidney to buy some new wheels for this years trials?
Bugger!
Another bloody dent...

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davew
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Postby davew » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:20 am

Very few steel wheels, if any, sit flush with the hub. If you look closely at their design there is normally a raised ring that holds most of the knave plate slightly clear of the hub. This means that when you tighten the wheel nuts you are actually flexing the knave plate inwards and that slight "spring" in the steel helps to keep the nuts tight.

Other than the above, I can't think of any other reason why your "cunning plan" shouldn't work.

olzook
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Postby olzook » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:56 am

Do the MSA cosider this to be safer than using decent spec spacers. :shock:

Now I am not an engineer but surely dodgy welds on a reversed wheel cannot be safe, how can a scrutineer assess this ?

Surely it is safer to get the right type of wheels, there are a huge range of options out there.

Just thought I would stir it up a bit :wink:

Oliver

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Re: Reversing rims

Postby dave willard » Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:10 pm

Hi
a couple of thoughts on this

1
Have you tried fitting a wheel / tyre reversed to check clearence on frnt/rear, you only need to try in your drive/a car park I suspect that you may have clearence problems
2
On vans with twin rear wheels the inner wheel is reversed, to locate the inside wheel tapered washers are fitted beween the wheel & hub, the outside well fits normally using the nuts to centre it.
I know LDV convoy use this method you could buy a tapered washers for not much money Phone local LDV for price
3
When buying wheels for my 90 8 years ago I found that white/ modulars etc all had different offsets so went out measuring them. Paddock were the best although 4+4 had some, may be worth cluing up so you could make a simple measurement from the outer rim to centre to compare(if tyre is on the rim you would need straight edge that just fits the rim) then try a couple of suppliers this rough comparison would ony work on same rim widths If you would like me to measure mine let me know

Dave

nicks90
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Postby nicks90 » Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:35 pm

davew wrote:Very few steel wheels, if any, sit flush with the hub. If you look closely at their design there is normally a raised ring that holds most of the knave plate slightly clear of the hub. This means that when you tighten the wheel nuts you are actually flexing the knave plate inwards and that slight "spring" in the steel helps to keep the nuts tight.

Other than the above, I can't think of any other reason why your "cunning plan" shouldn't work.


in that case - my spare wheel is going to be the guinea pig! Just popped out and had a look at the spare on the back and the rear of the wheel where it would mate against the face of the hub is totally flat with no raised ring.
the front face is also flat except for the wheel stud/nut bevels.
So going to trial fit them backwards to check for clearances and if it looks ok then out with the grinder and welder to see how easy it is!
Will also look into the tapered washer thing as well.
cheers Dave + Dave.
Bugger!

Another bloody dent...

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davew
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Postby davew » Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:47 pm

If you don't fancy trying to weld up the old valve hole, you could get a set of low profile valves like the ones I use on my beadlock rims. It's extra cost though.

dave willard
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Postby dave willard » Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:36 pm

nicks90 wrote:
davew wrote:Very few steel wheels, if any, sit flush with the hub. If you look closely at their design there is normally a raised ring that holds most of the knave plate slightly clear of the hub. This means that when you tighten the wheel nuts you are actually flexing the knave plate inwards and that slight "spring" in the steel helps to keep the nuts tight.

Other than the above, I can't think of any other reason why your "cunning plan" shouldn't work.


in that case - my spare wheel is going to be the guinea pig! Just popped out and had a look at the spare on the back and the rear of the wheel where it would mate against the face of the hub is totally flat with no raised ring.
the front face is also flat except for the wheel stud/nut bevels.
So going to trial fit them backwards to check for clearances and if it looks ok then out with the grinder and welder to see how easy it is!
Will also look into the tapered washer thing as well.
cheers Dave + Dave.




Hi

Be carefull welding on the rim I would ssek proffesional advice because welding on the rim arround the fixing hole could alter the steel making it softer / prone to failure, also you will need to let your insurance know who may need an angineers report. I know I am being a bit anal here but your insurance co only needs an excuse for pulling out if you lose a wheel killing say the royal family as they are also looking to save money

The washers could be made if you approach a local engineering co with a lathe (use original nuts as a template) but suspect bought ones cheaper, how about asking a breakers yard
you only need five initially & of course if it doesnt work out you can put the wheels on as you currently have them I would grind/weld as very last resort
Another idea on the washer, why not get a std nut & cut it where it starts to taper then file the thread so it just slides over the stud

Note LDV washers have a slot in them so when the nut is tightened the washer gets tighter on the stud

Dave

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Matthews
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Postby Matthews » Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:29 pm

The big problem I can see with both your options Nick is not the club or the MSA but your insurance co whilst driving to and from events and generally driving around, as D Willard pointed out if they found you had modified your own wheels and you then had an accident (wether attributed to the wheels or not) then they will probably declare your insurance null and void (a point the rest of us should also bear in mind given the mods we do to our vehicles, the decision at the end of the day boils down to you if you want to risk no insurance and a possible criminal conviction for the sake of £120 's worth of wheels.
Matthew

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tecnick
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Postby tecnick » Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:03 pm

Hi Nick,

I know times must be hard with the ankle biter around but surely ebay must be full of steel mods. Dont mess with the insurance, they win.

Cheers Nick
If it ain't broke, I'd be bloody suprised.

dave willard
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Postby dave willard » Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:39 am

Tecnick wrote:Hi Nick,

I know times must be hard with the ankle biter around but surely ebay must be full of steel mods. Dont mess with the insurance, they win.

Cheers Nick


Have you declared your suspension lift, the larger wheels & the front bumperto your insurance company in order to be fully covered.
Was an engineers report required

If you did what was their reaction
I ask this because I am thinking of doing the same to mine
Dave

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davew
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Postby davew » Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:39 am

I use Adrian Flux and every year fill out a modified vehicle form that lists everything I've changed. As the vehicle has to go through an MOT they don't ask for an engineer's report.

nicks90
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Postby nicks90 » Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:09 pm

i'm with lancaster and do the same modification form.
luckily they dont give a monkeys about the springs cos they are genuine LR part numbers and they dont care about what shocks i use - but the rest of the stuff is all declared and they have never asked for an engineers report.
Lancasters reasoning is the same as Dave says above - passes an MOT so its fine and if your mods are so far extreme then it'll need an sva and thats a good engineers report on its suitability to get a Q plate. Then lancaster would transfer your insurance to their Q plate cover.
Bugger!

Another bloody dent...

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Matthews
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Postby Matthews » Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:05 pm

Tell em everything and even send a couple of photo's to fully cover your back, keep a copy of the modification form before you return it to them aswell because they'll try and shaft you if anything goes wrong, if you've got a copy of everything then it's the insurance co that haven't got a leg to stand on, keep them in the dark and you could be digging a very deep hole in your wallet and event a criminal record.
Matthew

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tecnick
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Postby tecnick » Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:10 pm

Yes I did tell them everything, quote hardly went up either. Low milage classic policy.

Cheers Nick
If it ain't broke, I'd be bloody suprised.

bandiflip
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Postby bandiflip » Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:30 pm

Ear Nick....Who is your motor insured with ??... I need to insure my other Rangey aswell as keeping the insurance on my everyday Rangie....Do u have another car insured aswell as the Disco ??
do you know the meaning of Nemesis ???


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