WHEEL SPACERS AND WHEELS

[olzook]

Is the MSA rule for wheel spacers still 25mm( 1ins) with no extended studs ?

What are the rules on increased off-set wheels ?

Are beadlocks allowed ?

As I get used to the Jimny and more adventurous I would like a bit more slope stability as the track is quite a bit narrorwer than Landies etc

Would appreciate any info, need to try and get competitive some how !!!

Oliver

[davew]

Yes the MSA rule is still 25mm. I think the MSA rule will be changing for 2010. I can't remember what we decided for the current club position, Matthew is the one to answer that. The problem is that there are different designs of spacers and some are allowed, other aren't under he MSA rules.

There are no limits on wheel offsets/back space or sizes though so it's easy enough and preferable to widen the track that way.

No problem with bead locks.

[Matthews]

I think we decided no spacers full stop as this makes it easy for everyone and avoids any argument about size/construction/quality/safety.
Matthew

[tecnick]

Did you want to turn on your own foot print or is a stability thing?

Cheers Nick

[olzook]

Either would be beneficial

[Dave]

If the MSA rule change is approved by the MSA technical committee, from 1st Jan 2010, the rule will say - "For Trials and Challenge Events the SR's may permit the use of TUV Approved hub adapters / wheel spacers up to a maximum of 30mm in depth" But as Dave White says it will be up to the club to decide if it wants to change the clubs event SR's to allow the use of spacers. At the Cross Country committee we put the rule change forward, but I'm not sure if it has been approved or not, but will find out and let you all know.
Dave Barker

[Matthews]

How many people are going to be happy with taking all their wheels off to check the TUV markings and how long will the markings stay on the spacers, simplest way is to get the correct size wheels in the 1st place rather than mess about with spacers, also bear in mind that huge offset wheels or spacers put vast amounts of loading on both the wheel bearings and swivel bearings so any weaknesses there will show up very quickly, then there's also the problem of wheelarches covereing the tyres , most of us are already at the limit or borderline outside it (well outside when I've got the Simex's on the silly rims on the 110) with rubber coverage anyway so lets not start getting stupid.
Hope this gives food 4 thought
Matthew

[nicks90]

i do understand why poeple want to use them though -
if you have a set of alloys on your motor and want to keep them and not have a second set of gay-spokes for trialling and all the hassle of swapping wheels for every event, then using spacers gives you the offset of gayspokes but the good looks of the alloys.

same with disco steelies - flipping strong wheel but rubbish offset. I actually like they way they look painted black and i aint managed to damage one yet. Just wish they had more offset. Spending money on a set of spacers is cheaper than getting an adult to reverse the centres and reweld them all back up on a jig to keep 'em straight.


but club rules is club rules....

[davew]

I asked someone on LR4x4 to send me some pics of his TUV approved spacers so I could see what the mark(s) looked like. (They weren't fitted)

He had a look at them and replied that there were no markings to show they were TUV approved but he did have a certificate that came with them. IF they were genuinely TUV approved it doesn't bode well for the new rule, I certainly wouldn't accept a piece of paper as proof that the wheel spacers that are fitted are TUV approved.

If they weren't TUV approved then some unscrupulous companies are selling them under false pretenses by bundling a certificate with unapproved spacers.

Either way, much simpler just to "ban" them unless someone can show a good reason to allow them.

[pamw]

i do understand why poeple want to use them though -
if you have a set of alloys on your motor and want to keep them and not have a second set of gay-spokes for trialling and all the hassle of swapping wheels for every event, then using spacers gives you the offset of gayspokes but the good looks of the alloys.

I've used my alloys off-roading a couple of times, but was winced and cringed every time we got in rocky bits!

Alloys are not particularly suitable for off-roading on a regular basis as they get scratched too easily. With spacers they will stick out even more and be more vulverable to knocks and scrapes on rocks etc.

So really, a nice set of alloys won't stay a nice set of alloys very long !

[Dave]

My understanding is, if a product has been ‘TUV Approved’ a certificate is issued stating the fact its “TUV Approved” I don’t think its has to have a TUV stamp on it, something like the old BS mark. So I guess the system would be open to an unscrupulous person to sell a product under false pretences if they wished too, who would ever know? You can use a 2.5mm spacer now, so use longer wheel studs and fit a 2.5mm spacer, if you need the extra lock to turn. Or just buy rims with a better offset might be the answer, people do make them.

[leeds]

Dave, I believe you and Matthew understand offset/inset etc a lot better then most of us. Can you either post a link or a list of common rims with different offsets/insets please?

Regards

Brendan

[davew]

I've attached an image that someone on Difflock produced many moons ago that compares standard LR wheels and their positions.

[davew]

The image above isn't the easiest thing to follow in my view but the information is all there.

The first problem is that most people talk about "offset", I assume this is because it's the most visible thing when the wheel is on the vehicle. In terms of turning circle and track though the offset isn't important on it's own.

The important measurement is the one the wheel industry use - backspace. This is a measurement from the inside edge of the rim to the knave plate. You can more or less work out the backspace of a wheel if you know it's width and offset (measured from the outside edge of the rim to the knave plate).

The smaller the backspace is, the better steering you will have with any given set of tyres. Essentially the backspace measures the distance from the hub to the inner edge of the wheel and as a result the bigger the backspace the closer the tyre is to your radius arms - normally the limiting factor on a Land Rover.

From the picture above, the backspace for normal Land Rover wheels would be...

Standard Rim 5.5 inch - 4 inch backspace (offset is 1.5 inches)
Wolf Rim 6.5 inch - 4 inch backspace (offset is 2.5 inches)
Modular 7 inch - 3.8 inch backspace (offset is 3.2 inches)
Disco steel 7 inch - 4.8 inch backspace (offset is 2.2 inches)

Allied Rockathon 8.25 inch- 4 inch backspace (offset is 4.25 inches)
Matthew's new rims 10 inch - 2 inch backspace (offset is 8 inches)

The above shows straight away that Disco steels bring the tyre 1 inch closer to the radius arms than a modular of the same width. It doesn't sound like much but that's in the straight ahead position, as the wheel turns, the closer the wheel is already the quicker it moves towards the radius arm due to the offset pivot of the hub.

The disco steel is so badly off center (offset is much smaller than backspace) that it is not unusual to reverse the centers, turning them into a 2.2 inch backspace and turning them from a really awful trials wheel into one of the best. The problem is getting someone who can do it properly !

I don't have any info on 8 inch modulars but normally they come in at around 4 inch backspace, the same as the Allied ones.

[TwoSheds]

Ahhh - NOW I understand...

Thanks Dave!